Star Trek: The Discussion Thread

[Steerpike]

Originally Posted by fleinn

Right. Symbolising heavily the expulsion from eden, for all kinds of dramatic purposes. The problem is that they are not in a position to judge what makes that society work. But they are forced into it by circumstance. Or, to continue the eden- aphorism, they're just doing what they do, they are what they are. Or then again, maybe it's simply making a point that humans are no longer fit for living in paradise, and must leave.

That was part of the deal, no? To leave the starcluster, and never come back (cue booming voice of God).

Not really part of the deal. They had transported back to the Enterprise. Picard was trying to communicate with the Edo Guardian and made that offer. There was no verbal response, but he appeared to interpret no verbal response as agreement or approval when it could just as easily been indication that the Edo Guardian didn't care about those colonies.

More to the point, is a Star Fleet ship captain wouldn't have the authority to remove a colony. He could recommend it to the Federation, but his authority is only within Star Fleet.

Originally Posted by fleinn

Mm. Picard also explains that they accelerated the usual first contact because they felt they needed to. And he explains the difficult battle the federation fought to allow agents on other planets to prepare for the first contact - to avoid wars like with the Klingons or the Romulans. But in the end they keep the low profile, they avoid making irreversible displays of various kinds, and leave at the request of their leader, just as Picard promises. So I think it's pretty clear what the directive says, as well as what it is.

That is correct that Picard makes those points. So the directive is dealing with blatant interference not influence or contact. Which is why just being there is not a violation of the Prime Directive. If you think we have covered this adequately, then feel free to introduce the next thing to discuss.

Originally Posted by fleinn

Right. That's what I like about the original series, really. They know what the directive is - and they break it only if they have a good reason (which they question a lot). "You're going to listen to reason and be peaceful like us, or I'm going to shoot you in the head with my phaser!".

If you wish to branch our discussion out to the original series, then you are welcome to do so.

[DLFerguson]

Originally Posted by Steerpike

Officially, it is canon.

The final episode of the series was in essence a holodeck episode of Star Trek The Next Generation, by extension the entire series can be construed to be so. It is the functional equivalent of a series season which ends with the entire season being a dream sequence, only in this case it takes in the entire series (a la Newhart)

That's my take on STAR TREK: ENTERPRISE. The entire series was Will Riker's hologram program. It explains a lot of the inconsistencies in the series. And notice that even though "Chef" is mentioned prominently in many episodes we never see him until "These Are The Voyages"

STAR TREK: ENTERPRISE has grown on me even though I disliked it at first. I've been watching the reruns on The Sci-Fi Channel.

[fleinn]

Originally Posted by Steerpike

(...)could just as easily been indication that the Edo Guardian didn't care about those colonies.

Didn't Data hear from the Edo god that they laid claim to the entire starcluster? I thought that was where the idea came from.

More to the point, is a Star Fleet ship captain wouldn't have the authority to remove a colony. He could recommend it to the Federation, but his authority is only within Star Fleet.

But he's the one who makes the recommendations. And as the prime directive suggests discrete contact at the permission of the locals, I don't think they would have much choice if they were to report what happened.

That is correct that Picard makes those points. So the directive is dealing with blatant interference not influence or contact. Which is why just being there is not a violation of the Prime Directive.

No, it's obviously more than that - and something that's discussed at lenght in several episodes, specially in the TOS. That they have to be flexible, and they have to, and will interfere to some extent - but that they won't do so if it means imposing their own laws and morals on the others, and if their presence would impact the development of their culture. Which leads to, repeatedly, the question that - in their arrogance.. could it be they are simply stumbling over the flowers, or.. playing football on them, without knowing the extent of the damage they're doing.

And after that - perhaps if kicking over the flowers is necessary once in a while.

--------------

If you think we have covered this adequately, then feel free to introduce the next thing to discuss.

Let's see..

In ep.8, season 2 of the original series, Uhura has her memory wiped by the Nomad probe - a probe launched by the federation, was lost, and which later merged with another entity, eventually transforming into an intergalactic purifier of all imperfections. (Luckily for the Enterprise crew, it thinks the meatbags are part of running the ship, so it doesn't murder everyone - but it takes offense at Uhura's non- essential singing).



Two questions:
- Are anyone to blame for the Nomad turning into a planetary destroyer, hunting for deviations to a perfect, impossible standard (it's own image, which it considers perfect) - or is it an accident, like the crew suggests? That noone could predict such a thing happening from launching the peaceful Nomad- mission.

-Could the Enterprise, as an entity, function without the non- essential functions? Could Uhura be re- educated with Federation education and function just as well as before? (....I mean.. setting aside the fact that she only ever listened to communications and pushed that one button once or twice each episode.. you know what I mean >_<)

[Steerpike]

Originally Posted by fleinn

Didn't Data hear from the Edo god that they laid claim to the entire starcluster? I thought that was where the idea came from.

After initial contact with a "probe" from the Edo Guardian, Data makes a comment to that effect.

Originally Posted by fleinn

But he's the one who makes the recommendations. And as the prime directive suggests discrete contact at the permission of the locals, I don't think they would have much choice if they were to report what happened.

No, it's obviously more than that - and something that's discussed at lenght in several episodes, specially in the TOS. That they have to be flexible, and they have to, and will interfere to some extent - but that they won't do so if it means imposing their own laws and morals on the others, and if their presence would impact the development of their culture. Which leads to, repeatedly, the question that - in their arrogance.. could it be they are simply stumbling over the flowers, or.. playing football on them, without knowing the extent of the damage they're doing.

Can you point to specific examples?

Originally Posted by fleinn

Let's see..

In ep.8, season 2 of the original series, Uhura has her memory wiped by the Nomad probe - a probe launched by the federation, was lost, and which later merged with another entity, eventually transforming into an intergalactic purifier of all imperfections. (Luckily for the Enterprise crew, it thinks the meatbags are part of running the ship, so it doesn't murder everyone - but it takes offense at Uhura's non- essential singing).

The Nomad probe was launched in the early 21st Century which is prior to the founding of the Federation and first contact was about mid 21st century according to canon. Nomad encounters a probe from another civilization, this probe is called, "Tan-Ru." The technology of Tan-Ru is superior to that of Nomad as it was launched from earth.

Nomad foregoes the destruction of the Enterprise after a hail by Captain James Kirk, who Nomad confuses for its creator, Jackson Roykirk. It is the incorrect recognition by Nomad of Captain Kirk as its creator which keeps it from killing.

Originally Posted by fleinn

Two questions:
- Are anyone to blame for the Nomad turning into a planetary destroyer, hunting for deviations to a perfect, impossible standard (it's own image, which it considers perfect) - or is it an accident, like the crew suggests? That noone could predict such a thing happening from launching the peaceful Nomad- mission.

The accident explanation is tenable. The only sure way to avoid such an occurance would be to not launch it in the first place, which defeats the purpose of building it for exploration.

Originally Posted by fleinn

-Could the Enterprise, as an entity, function without the non- essential functions? Could Uhura be re- educated with Federation education and function just as well as before? (....I mean.. setting aside the fact that she only ever listened to communications and pushed that one button once or twice each episode.. you know what I mean >_<)

What are you suggesting as "non-essential?" (By definition if something is non-essential, then it is non-essential.) No I don't know what you mean. Lieutenant Uhura was a competent Star Fleet Officer.

[fleinn]

Originally Posted by Steerpike

Can you point to specific examples?

Well, there are a few examples where they eventually decide to leave people alone, after they've obviously had an impact. Like:
For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky - Memory Alpha, the Star Trek Wiki
Or the planet where the indians and the pioneers eventually end up fighting, because the Klingons teach one side to make guns, and the federation follows up teaching the indians how to fight.

In both cases, they break the directive on purpose because the idea of simply standing by and allowing it to go on isn't acceptable. In the first, because it would mean destroying the ship. And in the other.. because Kirk says it "has to be". Something McCoy won't really agree with, when wondering how certain Kirk really are. And whether it's just the case that they are using them to fight their own battles..

The Nomad probe was launched in the early 21st Century which is prior to the founding of the Federation and first contact was about mid 21st century according to canon. Nomad encounters a probe from another civilization, this probe is called, "Tan-Ru." The technology of Tan-Ru is superior to that of Nomad as it was launched from earth.

Nomad foregoes the destruction of the Enterprise after a hail by Captain James Kirk, who Nomad confuses for its creator, Jackson Roykirk. It is the incorrect recognition by Nomad of Captain Kirk as its creator which keeps it from killing.

:) Thanks for that. Was it Kirk who convinced the probe the crew was necessary..?

The accident explanation is tenable. The only sure way to avoid such an occurance would be to not launch it in the first place, which defeats the purpose of building it for exploration.

But what about the image of perfection? It's programming. Obviously it's not malicious, and it's been corrupted - but it's a curious thing, no? That an advanced form of looking for suitable life could be turned into a killing machine like that?

What are you suggesting as "non-essential?" (By definition if something is non-essential, then it is non-essential.) No I don't know what you mean. Lieutenant Uhura was a competent Star Fleet Officer.

:) I meant her singing, like Nomad. And all the other battles they fight on the Enterprise - with themselves, with Kirks ego, with mission- command.. It's not essential for running the exploration- mission, no?

[Steerpike]

Originally Posted by fleinn

Well, there are a few examples where they eventually decide to leave people alone, after they've obviously had an impact. Like:
For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky - Memory Alpha, the Star Trek Wiki

In "For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky", the asteroid/spaceship Yonada was on a collision course with an inhabited planet, Daren V. A lot of lives were at stake. If the Enterprise destroys Yonada, then it saves Daren V but kills innocent people. Captain Kirk is not willing to take that step. Instead they gain access to the control center of Yonada and correct the course. In terms of the Prime Directive, this is arguably the best scenario, the Fabrini get to keep living as do the people of Daren V.

Originally Posted by fleinn

Or the planet where the indians and the pioneers eventually end up fighting, because the Klingons teach one side to make guns, and the federation follows up teaching the indians how to fight.

In both cases, they break the directive on purpose because the idea of simply standing by and allowing it to go on isn't acceptable. In the first, because it would mean destroying the ship. And in the other.. because Kirk says it "has to be". Something McCoy won't really agree with, when wondering how certain Kirk really are. And whether it's just the case that they are using them to fight their own battles..

I think you are mixing up your episodes here. The episode where the Federation, or more accurately, Captain Kirk decides to give the hill people guns is "A Private Little War." The episode with "Indians" fighting was "The Omega Glory" and the ones they were fighting were "asiatics." In this episode, another Captain, Ronald Tracey of the Starship Exeter is manipulating the people in hopes of finding a syrum for "virtual immortality." Captain Tracey does violate the Prime Directive, as some of the people he contacts ("the asiatics") know what phasers are when they see them on Kirk and his people, "they carry fire boxes."

Originally Posted by fleinn

:) Thanks for that. Was it Kirk who convinced the probe the crew was necessary..?

He doesn't "convince" the probe, he basically orders it to behave. The crew are his "units." Nomad comments about how "the Spock unit" is different than the other "biological units". It's (Spocks) "thinking is more ordered."

Originally Posted by fleinn

But what about the image of perfection? It's programming. Obviously it's not malicious, and it's been corrupted - but it's a curious thing, no? That an advanced form of looking for suitable life could be turned into a killing machine like that?

:) I meant her singing, like Nomad. And all the other battles they fight on the Enterprise - with themselves, with Kirks ego, with mission- command.. It's not essential for running the exploration- mission, no?

Actually according to the episode, Tan-Ru was sent out to locate and sterilize soil samples from other planets, "probably as a prelude to colonization."

It isn't? If one wishes to have an efficient crew, then one will consider what keeps said crew efficient as necessary to that efficiency. If singing kept Uhura's "spirits" up, then it can contribute to her efficiency. So far as "all the other battles" goes, don't overlook Star Trek as social science fiction.

[fleinn]

Originally Posted by Steerpike

In terms of the Prime Directive, this is arguably the best scenario, the Fabrini get to keep living as do the people of Daren V.

:) Maybe this is the origin for the problematic decision the federation had about non- interference?

I think you are mixing up your episodes here. The episode where the Federation, or more accurately, Captain Kirk decides to give the hill people guns is "A Private Little War." The episode with "Indians" fighting was "The Omega Glory" and the ones they were fighting were "asiatics." In this episode, another Captain, Ronald Tracey of the Starship Exeter is manipulating the people in hopes of finding a syrum for "virtual immortality." Captain Tracey does violate the Prime Directive, as some of the people he contacts ("the asiatics") know what phasers are when they see them on Kirk and his people, "they carry fire boxes."

Right, the noble hill people hunters and the city- people. But it's a valid question, no, to wonder about whether it's truly inevitable that the two peoples would have to engage in a long and bloody war, in order to become civilised? Like Kirk suggests. Or whether they really are imposing the federation's and the Klingons' battles on them. Maybe there are no good solutions, once they are there?

He doesn't "convince" the probe, he basically orders it to behave. The crew are his "units." Nomad comments about how "the Spock unit" is different than the other "biological units". It's (Spocks) "thinking is more ordered."

..hm. I was sure Kirk pleads about how the crew is essential to the ship's functioning at one point.

Actually according to the episode, Tan-Ru was sent out to locate and sterilize soil samples from other planets, "probably as a prelude to colonization."

Right. I just thought it was an interesting problem - when there was an active part of that programming, and not just an observing role - the first programming of the probe, and it's image of perfection, became so disastrous. While neither of the two original entities really posed much of a threat.

It isn't? If one wishes to have an efficient crew, then one will consider what keeps said crew efficient as necessary to that efficiency. If singing kept Uhura's "spirits" up, then it can contribute to her efficiency. So far as "all the other battles" goes, don't overlook Star Trek as social science fiction.

:) It's a little microcosmos, no? But.. I wonder if simply programming Uhura with the skills she would need (through their "advanced learning programme"), could be replicated for other functions on the ship? Maybe all of them? What about people from other cultures - would they fit into the federation more easily that way?

[Steerpike]

Originally Posted by fleinn

:) Maybe this is the origin for the problematic decision the federation had about non- interference?

Since the prequel series could well be a holodeck adventure, its accuracy in portraying "Trek" history is suspect.

Originally Posted by fleinn

Right, the noble hill people hunters and the city- people. But it's a valid question, no, to wonder about whether it's truly inevitable that the two peoples would have to engage in a long and bloody war, in order to become civilised? Like Kirk suggests. Or whether they really are imposing the federation's and the Klingons' battles on them. Maybe there are no good solutions, once they are there?

If there was imposition in that episode, then it was the Klingons who came in and taught the village people to make flintlocks and encouraging them to kill. At that point, the Federation would have limited choices: First: sit back and allow this interference to go unanswered and allow the balance between the village people and the hill people to be disrupted with all the attendant consequences. Second: They could try to re-set the balance by giving the hill people an equal chance at fighting for their own survival.

Captain Kirk opted to reset the balance.

Perhaps to allow greater participation in this thread it is time to bring back Star Trek The Next Generation into this discussion.



The Enterprise crew takes actions which are questionable under the Prime Directive in the episode, "Pen Pals." What does anyone think about how Captain Picard and his crew resolved this situation?

Originally Posted by fleinn

..hm. I was sure Kirk pleads about how the crew is essential to the ship's functioning at one point.

Are you thinking of this line?

"Enterpise would be unable to function without carbon units."

Originally Posted by fleinn

Right. I just thought it was an interesting problem - when there was an active part of that programming, and not just an observing role - the first programming of the probe, and it's image of perfection, became so disastrous. While neither of the two original entities really posed much of a threat.

:) It's a little microcosmos, no? But.. I wonder if simply programming Uhura with the skills she would need (through their "advanced learning programme"), could be replicated for other functions on the ship? Maybe all of them? What about people from other cultures - would they fit into the federation more easily that way?

Uhura was re-learning. Nomad wiped knowledge from her and not all knowledge either as she still understood language.
------
It appears that this discussion needs some widening. So here are several potential venues for discussion. Anyone may pick and choose what they want to discuss.

Star Trek (The Original Series)

In the episode, “Errand of Mercy” the Enterprise crew encounter a race known as the Organians. They are not aware that these people are actually more powerful than themselves and the Klingons. At the end of the episode, the Organians impose a peace treaty on the Federation and the Klingon Empire.

1. Do the Organians have a right to impose peace on other parties?



Star Trek The Next Generation

In the episode, “Who Watches the Watchers” a Federation observation post is compromised on a pre-industrial planet, Mintaka. The locals capture one of the observation team. The Mintakans weren’t even aware of the existence of other intelligent life forms prior to this encounter. The encounter causes a reawakening of previously held beliefs in the supernatural.



1. Should the Federation have even been there in the first place?
2. What did you think of Captain Picard’s way of resolving the situation?

Star Trek Deep Space Nine

In the episode, “Progress” we see a group of Bajorans settled on a moon of Bajor. The Bajoran government wishes to use that moon to produce energy., but the technique they are going to use requires that all people leave for their own safety.



1. Should a government be able to dispossess citizens in the name of “the greater good?” If so, then under what conditions?

Star Trek Voyager

In the episode, “Tuvix,” Tuvok and Neelix are joined in a transporter accident. In the end, Captain Janeway decides to separate them again.



1. What do you think of that decision?

[fleinn]

...
...
hm. Ok, this is my favourite TNG episode. "Darmok" - possibly the only real "first contact" mission we actually see in Star Trek (instead of being told that it happened, and so on). It's also one of the few references to the mysterious universal translator (that apparently is in use all the time).


(Captains Dathon and Picard on the planet).

Darmok (episode - Memory Alpha, the Star Trek Wiki)
Story: the Enterprise discovers an unknown vessel. She hails the Enterprise - but they speak in a language that has a type of expression unlike any other they've encountered before.

The captain of the unknown vessel, after understanding they cannot communicate with the Enterprise crew, decides to take a risk - their mission is to seek out new life forms, after all - and beams himself and Picard down to a planet, after ordering his ship to isolate them from any interference. For instance from the Enterprise.

Because at this point, the planet, with Dathon and Picard isolated from their allies, resemble an important part of the Tamarian mythology. Where two warriors from different clans were lost on "an island", and had to work together to survive. Which is the substance of the phrase the captain speaks often, when speaking about their mission and their difficult relations with the Enterprise crew. Because this is how the Tamarians communicate - in parable, illustrating concepts through invoking events and terms from their mythology.

While he could've been more successful in the end (thanks to the Enterprise's well- intended meddling), this is what Dathon wants to show Picard - a lesson about their language in an attempt to establish communication. The crucial part of interspecies contact, which all else will fail without.

To be honest, I'm not sure I know exactly why I like that episode so much - but I suppose the way the usual course of events on the Enterprise is turned upside down has something to do with it. :)

[Steerpike]

Originally Posted by fleinn

...
...
hm. Ok, this is my favourite TNG episode. "Darmok" - possibly the only real "first contact" mission we actually see in Star Trek (instead of being told that it happened, and so on). It's also one of the few references to the mysterious universal translator (that apparently is in use all the time).


(Captains Dathon and Picard on the planet).

Darmok (episode - Memory Alpha, the Star Trek Wiki)
Story: the Enterprise discovers an unknown vessel. She hails the Enterprise - but they speak in a language that has a type of expression unlike any other they've encountered before.

The captain of the unknown vessel, after understanding they cannot communicate with the Enterprise crew, decides to take a risk - their mission is to seek out new life forms, after all - and beams himself and Picard down to a planet, after ordering his ship to isolate them from any interference. For instance from the Enterprise.

Because at this point, the planet, with Dathon and Picard isolated from their allies, resemble an important part of the Tamarian mythology. Where two warriors from different clans were lost on "an island", and had to work together to survive. Which is the substance of the phrase the captain speaks often, when speaking about their mission and their difficult relations with the Enterprise crew. Because this is how the Tamarians communicate - in parable, illustrating concepts through invoking events and terms from their mythology.

While he could've been more successful in the end (thanks to the Enterprise's well- intended meddling), this is what Dathon wants to show Picard - a lesson about their language in an attempt to establish communication. The crucial part of interspecies contact, which all else will fail without.

To be honest, I'm not sure I know exactly why I like that episode so much - but I suppose the way the usual course of events on the Enterprise is turned upside down has something to do with it. :)

The Tamarians form of communication can be described as "Shaka when the walls fell." One can question if the writers thought this concept out. It doesn't hold logical validity as it relies on understanding metaphor to communicate but not the meaning of the words on their own. How would a Tamarian come to understand the mythology if she/he doesn't understand the meaning of words in the first place? If the words were the basis of the communication, then using metaphor would be unnecessary.

The Tamarians use of force against the Enterprise (disabling a shuttle) to keep the encounter planet side going is questionable .

What does anyone think of the way Captain Picard handled this encounter?