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Old 03-18-2008, 08:55 PM   #11 (permalink)
Hi_Im_Tim
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Originally Posted by soot View Post
Pretend we didn't have the bomb.

What do you think would happen then?

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that Pearl Harbor never happens. There's no immediate impetus to go to war with anyone so the doves who have been pushing for isolationism since 1920 win out and we don't enter the war in Europe either.

No war - no bomb (probably).

Either Germany wins WWII and becomes the sole global superpower, or Russia wins the war and does what Russia did anyway (I know that what Russia did was a result of playing a game of one upsmanship with the US and our NATO allies but were pretending here).

So either Russia or Germany as the world's only superpower decides to invade a United States which does not have a bomb, which hasn't realligned, reorganized, and grown her military, and which did not go thrugh a period of postwar economic expansion unparalled in human history.

Essentially the US is what she was at the tail end of the Depression with a couple years of modest economic growth behind her.

Who'd win then?
Are you also assuming that Germany never invaded Russia, because if they were at war with each other and Nazi Germany attacked the U.S. then the U.S. probably would have won.

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Old 03-20-2008, 07:34 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I take it your not British?? They'd rather have died than surrendered.
Before Göring switched from bombing airstrips and military production facilities to The Blitz, the British were rapidly losing their ability to defend themselves. If their air power was destroyed, it was simply a matter of time before their Navy was dealt with and a land invasion began.

As Ironic said, the Nazis would have needed a serious technological edge to deal with a country as large as America. I could see a joint invasion with Japan in the mid to late 40's as a possibility, had the Depression continued and Japan being much more aggressive in neutralizing US naval power in the Pacific
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Old 03-20-2008, 09:01 PM   #13 (permalink)
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It would be a massive task for an inter-continental invasion for a hypothetical Nazi invasion of North America or of an American invasion of Nazi Europe; D-day would of never happened had the British Isles fallen to axis powers, the UK landmass acted as a giant aircraft carrier and harbour for the western allies. The logistics and man power required for any invasion is huge and a water born invasion is never easy and one across an ocean unlikely.

If you spin the world around and have a look at the battles of the pacific and what was required to invade a small island, too just get a foot hold for any kind of platform, you can see the task in hand is near impossible. First you have to get naval superiority then you must gain air superiorty, then you must also get within range to strike by doing both the above again and again and again, and finally you must invade a defending force who are expecting you.

The US had a very very low civilian casualty rate in the war and this is due to its advantage of its location in relation to the conflicts, this advantage is any invaders disadvantage.

Looking at what actually happened during the war and the difficulties that the US had in fighting wars away from their territories and remembering also that their enemy also had other enemies, namely Russia and China but also the UK and her colonies(India etc) plus the numerous other allied forces. Had the allies fallen and 2 powers remain any intercontinental invasion would not of happened even hypotheticly(?). Most likely the war would of either spread into a land grab of Africa, unless the US could react fast they would be on the backfoot. What would of most likely happened is exactly what happened between the US and the Soviet Union, a 'Cold war' would of ensued with everyone on tenterhooks until either one side collapsed(as happened) or until one side pressed the big red button.
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Old 03-21-2008, 08:22 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Nazi Germany would have to defeat USSR to win the war (assuming US didn't participate). They were having a hard time attempting that. But assuming they did win, and joined forces with the Soviets and Japanese...it makes a very strong coalition to invade US (geographically strategic for attacks plus joint technologies). But Germany alone wouldn't win - maybe capture key cities in the East Coast but that's all.

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Old 03-22-2008, 01:09 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Are you also assuming that Germany never invaded Russia, because if they were at war with each other and Nazi Germany attacked the U.S. then the U.S. probably would have won.
That's almost impossible to imagine.

Regardless of what nations were involved Russia was getting invaded by Germany sooner or later. One of the main themes of Mein Kampf was the invasion of Russia, the eradication of the Slavs, and the usurpation of Russian land and resources.

In one sense WWII in Europe was defined by, or predicated on, the eventual invasion of Russia by Nazi Germany.
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Originally Posted by ysabel View Post
Nazi Germany would have to defeat USSR to win the war (assuming US didn't participate). They were having a hard time attempting that. But assuming they did win, and joined forces with the Soviets and Japanese...it makes a very strong coalition to invade US (geographically strategic for attacks plus joint technologies). But Germany alone wouldn't win - maybe capture key cities in the East Coast but that's all.
That wouldn't have happened.

Germany wouldn't have "joined forces" with Russia.

Last edited by soot; 03-22-2008 at 01:09 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 03-22-2008, 01:22 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Are you also assuming that Germany never invaded Russia, because if they were at war with each other and Nazi Germany attacked the U.S. then the U.S. probably would have won.
Yeah, the war might have ended differently if they hadn't invaded Russia and if the US didn't make Germany fight a three front war.

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Old 03-23-2008, 07:48 PM   #17 (permalink)
soot
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Yeah, the war might have ended differently if they hadn't invaded Russia and if the US didn't make Germany fight a three front war.
You're saying here that the US made Germany fight a three front war.

I don't know if that's what you meant to say, but it is what you're saying.

Could you explain what you mean please?

What three fronts are you refering to?

Thanks.
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Old 03-24-2008, 04:06 AM   #18 (permalink)
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That wouldn't have happened.

Germany wouldn't have "joined forces" with Russia.
In reality, the possibility is as big as the possibility of Germany beating USSR, meaning small (which was the condition I presented before the "joint force" suggestion). I thought we're just talking about hypothetical situations here. That's the only hypothetical situation I can think of that can possibly survive a war against the US in US soil.

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Last edited by ysabel; 03-24-2008 at 04:08 AM.
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Old 03-24-2008, 08:05 AM   #19 (permalink)
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In reality, the possibility is as big as the possibility of Germany beating USSR, meaning small (which was the condition I presented before the "joint force" suggestion). I thought we're just talking about hypothetical situations here. That's the only hypothetical situation I can think of that can possibly survive a war against the US in US soil.
Okay.

I can live with that.

Sorry I was being overly analytical.
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Old 03-24-2008, 12:52 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Interesting deviation from the topic: could it have been possible if Hitler had been assassinated earlier in the war (addendum: possible removal of Göring) and his generals direct much of the war? The Eastern Front was a disaster that made, even from 1943, the defeat of Germany a matter of time.

I don't know as I'm not much of an alternate history junkie (more of a lurker on their main forum). Anyone have any ideas of a possible path from that deviation that could have led to a Nazi victory?
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