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Reply Posted: July 29th, 2010 @ 08:11 PM
Last time I checked, people want work, not Unemployment Benefits.
I disagree. I hear many stories that people intentionally get fired from their work to collect unemployment benefits. Instead of the government treating us like cattle, they need to put in a system where it gets less abused (I'll be smoking if I said NO abuse).

Like another poster said they need to show that they looked for work. Not just one or two applications a month, but I would go as far to say at least 50. Why not? What else are you doing? The 50 mark at least shows that you gave some effort for the month and that you are trying to look for work rather than abusing the system.

Also, the unemployed should also look for work where they offer minimum wage. What sort of elitist are you that you won't even consider a less paying job? You're unemployed! It's terrible that you lost your laxed office job, however you need to realize you are taking tax payer money to live while looking for that good paying job. Sometimes - in life - we have to go down the ladder. >=X

Last edited by viLky; July 29th, 2010 at 08:12 PM..


Reply Posted: July 29th, 2010 @ 09:55 PM
Originally Posted by viLky View Post
I disagree. I hear many stories that people intentionally get fired from their work to collect unemployment benefits. Instead of the government treating us like cattle, they need to put in a system where it gets less abused (I'll be smoking if I said NO abuse).

Like another poster said they need to show that they looked for work. Not just one or two applications a month, but I would go as far to say at least 50. Why not? What else are you doing? The 50 mark at least shows that you gave some effort for the month and that you are trying to look for work rather than abusing the system.

Also, the unemployed should also look for work where they offer minimum wage. What sort of elitist are you that you won't even consider a less paying job? You're unemployed! It's terrible that you lost your laxed office job, however you need to realize you are taking tax payer money to live while looking for that good paying job. Sometimes - in life - we have to go down the ladder. >=X

You disagree? Psshh you're way out of touch then. THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO WORK. THERE ARE NO JOBS. Do you even watch the news? Are you even aware that the United States is in financial troubles and a bad economy? Thanks to this idiot marxist prick we have in the white house it won't get any better. Yup I said that on point! Sorry that you disagree but you're WRONG. Not all people who are unemployed are doing that intentionally..so maybe you should revise your post. I'm lucky enough that I moved here from Japan to hold the career I have to say i'm employed...What about you?

Last edited by Natsumi; July 29th, 2010 at 10:00 PM..


Reply Posted: August 2nd, 2010 @ 01:22 AM
Originally Posted by CaptainObvious View Post
Nope. They're fairly easy to get.
The point is over this way.

Even if they were as easy to get, even if they did cover every expense that comes with getting a degree, most college students graduate with 10s of thousands of dollars of debt from these loans. Compound this with the fact that a good number of student loans could be considered predatory and the dismal job market and we get to the next point...

And they say the Texas education system is run my retarded apes
...about risk. Instead of trying to make this a big government debate, just reread what I posted and stick with that. What you're not getting is the risk analysis part of all this. With all the time, money and effort spent on a degree, which is unnecessary to begin with, in an economy where jobs are disappearing from nearly ever field, why take that risk when a job could be another month's wait away? You never know.

For someone who pushes personal responsibility, you sure are hasty to back the "massive risk for probably no reward" option. Especially considering that the discussion is about solving relatively short term unemployment.


You need to learn to read closer. I never said anything close to this.
You're right, you didn't say that, which is why I did.


I can't believe the irony of this statement. No matter how many times I say I'm not speaking about the entire unemployed population I still get dumb questions like "so ALL Americans are lazy", no matter how many times I say "I'm not saying this is a reason to eliminate the benefits completely" I still get comments as if I did say that. Maybe I'm giving you too much credit, maybe you're not a troll, maybe you just can't read.
Hopefully for the very last time, I'm not calling for the elimination of unemployment benefits
Hope this one isn't revering back to me too. Also, does calling everyone who disagrees with you a troll help you sleep at night?

Sermons? They're not sermons, it's a perspective. But I'll give you a sermon.



Times are tough...whoop de doo. Man-up and grow a pair. Quit whining. I was born with a strike against me yet I don't sit around and whine like you do. I've been called spic, greaser, wetback, hell I was denied a promotion BECAUSE of my ethnicity (which is why I quit and went to law school) and I don't sit around and whine like this. You said in another thread you'd rather sit around and collect unemployment if it was more than what you are making, I find that disgraceful. Quit whining on an internet forum, quit sitting around with your handout, and get a job. Earn your keep for ****'s sakes.
Before I respond to this masterpiece of rage and misquotes, I'd love to hear who you think I am. Really, from the sounds of this you'd think I have a modem hooked up to a cardboard box under the bridge.


Originally Posted by viLky View Post
Also, the unemployed should also look for work where they offer minimum wage. What sort of elitist are you that you won't even consider a less paying job?
The rest of what you said can be answered by previous posts, but you do realize that poor people can be fired and out of work too, right?


Reply Posted: August 2nd, 2010 @ 10:24 AM
[quote=Gavik;879564]
The point is over this way.

Even if they were as easy to get, even if they did cover every expense that comes with getting a degree, most college students graduate with 10s of thousands of dollars of debt from these loans. Compound this with the fact that a good number of student loans could be considered predatory and the dismal job market and we get to the next point...
Predatory lending? Some of the amounts owed can be forgiven, interest rates are at times less than 3%, or you can do like I did and borrow little and work your way through. Either way the point is people can do something about their situation in life, whether it be college, a skill like plumbing or electricity, or whatever. Yes it's tough, so what?


...about risk. Instead of trying to make this a big government debate, just reread what I posted and stick with that. What you're not getting is the risk analysis part of all this. With all the time, money and effort spent on a degree, which is unnecessary to begin with, in an economy where jobs are disappearing from nearly ever field, why take that risk when a job could be another month's wait away? You never know.
And those are risks you take. Maybe the economy will pick up, maybe it won't. The government throwing money around doesn't give one much hope that it will pick up soon, though.

For someone who pushes personal responsibility, you sure are hasty to back the "massive risk for probably no reward" option. Especially considering that the discussion is about solving relatively short term unemployment.
I like how you characterize the risk as "massive" and the reward as "probably no" to make your argument sound better.





Hope this one isn't revering back to me too. Also, does calling everyone who disagrees with you a troll help you sleep at night?
I don't recall calling anyone else a troll that I disagree with, care to provide some links?






Before I respond to this masterpiece of rage and misquotes, I'd love to hear who you think I am. Really, from the sounds of this you'd think I have a modem hooked up to a cardboard box under the bridge.

I'll be honest with you, man, I really couldn't care less.


Reply Posted: August 2nd, 2010 @ 02:29 PM
Originally Posted by CaptainObvious View Post
Predatory lending? Some of the amounts owed can be forgiven,
In very few fields under very specific circumstances.

interest rates are at times less than 3%
Well thank god they can be that low "at times."

or you can do like I did and borrow little and work your way through.
Yes but in the context of this topic that would mean their job was paying enough to support them and pay education expenses. Seems unlikely to help anyone get off unemployment any faster.

Either way the point is people can do something about their situation in life, whether it be college, a skill like plumbing or electricity, or whatever. Yes it's tough, so what?

...

And those are risks you take. Maybe the economy will pick up, maybe it won't. The government throwing money around doesn't give one much hope that it will pick up soon, though.
I can't seem to find the post where I said or implied that getting a job or getting any richer was too tough or risky to try.

I like how you characterize the risk as "massive"
They aren't?

and the reward as "probably no" to make your argument sound better.
Never needed to be spun to sound any better in the first place. For the last time, in the context of the current job market and economy, the risks/costs for those currently on unemployment benefits of getting a higher degree, certification etc do not justify the effort, nor does it realistically improve chances of finding work.

As I'm sure you know, because you are literate, I'm not calling on the government to simply plan on supporting the unemployed for the rest of their lives. But did you happen to notice how the recession came after over a decade of financial deregulation? Some student loans and the invisible hand aren't going to get anyone off unemployment any time soon.

In fact, the entire issue of unemployment is ludicrously small compared to the macroeconomic policies that really guide the economy. Jobs won't be created by making stricter requirements for job hunting for people on unemployment, nor will they be magically created by more people graduating from colleges. It's a symptom of a decrepit economy, not the main disease. I'm not saying there's nothing that can be done, but the US is going to be looking at higher unemployment rates for a long time to come.

I don't recall calling anyone else a troll that I disagree with, care to provide some links?
Actually I can't, because I'm the only one that fundamentally disagree with you on a majority of issues around here. Most of mature discussion has become a bizarre, right-wing circle jerk.

I'll be honest with you, man, I really couldn't care less.
That wall of text and deleted post say otherwise.


Reply Posted: August 2nd, 2010 @ 04:37 PM
[quote=Gavik;879746]



Well thank god they can be that low "at times."
I agree.


Yes but in the context of this topic that would mean their job was paying enough to support them and pay education expenses. Seems unlikely to help anyone get off unemployment any faster.
Working while trying to obtain an education is unlikely to get anyone off unemployment?


I can't seem to find the post where I said or implied that getting a job or getting any richer was too tough or risky to try.
Seems to me that's the entire theme of your argument.

For the last time, in the context of the current job market and economy, the risks/costs for those currently on unemployment benefits of getting a higher degree, certification etc do not justify the effort, nor does it realistically improve chances of finding work.
They aren't?
No, they aren't.


Never needed to be spun to sound any better in the first place. For the last time, in the context of the current job market and economy, the risks/costs for those currently on unemployment benefits of getting a higher degree, certification etc do not justify the effort, nor does it realistically improve chances of finding work.
This isn't implied, it's just coming out and saying it. I couldn't disagree with this sentiment more.

As I'm sure you know, because you are literate, I'm not calling on the government to simply plan on supporting the unemployed for the rest of their lives. But did you happen to notice how the recession came after over a decade of financial deregulation? Some student loans and the invisible hand aren't going to get anyone off unemployment any time soon.
Maybe you aren't, but it does appear you're arguing it's not worth the effort. I think you have an incorrect definition of deregulation and the invisible hand.

In fact, the entire issue of unemployment is ludicrously small compared to the macroeconomic policies that really guide the economy. Jobs won't be created by making stricter requirements for job hunting for people on unemployment, nor will they be magically created by more people graduating from colleges. It's a symptom of a decrepit economy, not the main disease. I'm not saying there's nothing that can be done, but the US is going to be looking at higher unemployment rates for a long time to come.
Agreed, especially with continued government spending instead of letting the free market fix it.



Actually I can't, because I'm the only one that fundamentally disagree with you on a majority of issues around here. Most of mature discussion has become a bizarre, right-wing circle jerk.
That's what I thought. It was the exact opposite when I first joined yet you won't find me calling anyone that either. The difference with you is you wait until someone has posted something in response to a thread and you mischaracterize that statement to bait. That's why I've called you a troll and noone else. Not because somehow YOU'RE the only one that disagrees with me, plenty disagree with me. They just don't bait.


That wall of text and deleted post say otherwise.
Don't flatter yourself. Discussing something with you doesn't mean I care.


Reply Posted: August 2nd, 2010 @ 06:32 PM
Originally Posted by CaptainObvious View Post
I agree.


Working while trying to obtain an education is unlikely to get anyone off unemployment?
Yes, since they would be employed in that case. Employed and earning enough to support themselves and pay tuition.

Seems to me that's the entire theme of your argument.
Going back to school would qualify someone to look for a different type of job than they are currently looking for. The job market is **** in most sectors. Chances are being able to apply for a different type of job won't do you much good after incurring more student loan debt and spending the time at school when you could keep looking for a job in your current field.

This isn't implied, it's just coming out and saying it. I couldn't disagree with this sentiment more.
Good, grab a cookie.

Agreed, especially with continued government spending instead of letting the free market fix it.
Then you're not really agreeing.

Maybe you aren't, but it does appear you're arguing it's not worth the effort. I think you have an incorrect definition of deregulation and the invisible hand.

That's what I thought. It was the exact opposite when I first joined yet you won't find me calling anyone that either. The difference with you is you wait until someone has posted something in response to a thread and you mischaracterize that statement to bait. That's why I've called you a troll and noone else. Not because somehow YOU'RE the only one that disagrees with me, plenty disagree with me. They just don't bait.
Maybe I'll lend you the dictionary before I look up deregulation so you you can look up bait and ad hominem.

Yea, it's pretty easy to see why plenty of people would disagree with you. MD's pretty limp dick at the moment, mainly because there's a block of quasi-libertarians and right wingers that dominate the discussion. Sorry I spoiled the fun.


Don't flatter yourself. Discussing something with you doesn't mean I care.
Precious.

I'm done here, as I suspect we've both been since the well got poisoned in the deleted posts. This topic's already gone in more circles than any Nascar.

Last edited by Gavik; August 2nd, 2010 at 06:42 PM..


Reply Posted: August 2nd, 2010 @ 09:46 PM
[quote=Gavik;879831]

Maybe I'll lend you the dictionary before I look up deregulation so you you can look up bait and ad hominem.

The problem is you're using the word deregulation to imply the government backed off lending standards so predatory lenders lent to people and took advantage of them thus creating this disparity between rich and poor and the free market crashed. You're implying the invisible hand didn't work, the middle class and the poor class didn't benefit.

What you're ignoring is the government encouraged this lending by passing the Community Reinvestment Act and by the Fed keeping interest rates really low encouraging lending. Banks would lend people money for housing, Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae would buy these loans, then sell mortgage backed securities, backed by these bad loans. This created an artificial demand for housing, raising housing prices. They kept growing and growing, creating false home values, it wasn't that the invisible hand failed, it was that it couldn't sustain the artificial demand. The bubble eventually burst when people who couldn't afford these mortgages stopped paying, killing the investment not just in the housing but in the securities.

So it's not that there was deregulation as you say in the market, there was overregulation that failed. Just saying "the market was deregulated" is a fallback answer that sounds good, but is incorrect.

Yea, it's pretty easy to see why plenty of people would disagree with you. MD's pretty limp dick at the moment, mainly because there's a block of quasi-libertarians and right wingers that dominate the discussion. Sorry I spoiled the fun.
Again, quit flattering yourself.




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