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Facts That Prove or Disprove the Bible

  • April 16th, 2010 @ 03:21 AM
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  • 20 replies
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I was asked in another thread to post facts from a book claiming to prove the Bible's validity. While I still think the person who asked me should just read the book, I decided to make this thread and open a discussion on such facts. A lot of people are quick to assume that there is no evidence that the Bible is true. In this thread I will attempt to show those assumptions to be dead wrong. Additionally, I've included links to several books at the bottom of this thread that go into a lot more detail about the evidence of the Bible/Christianity being true.

I've been doing some research lately and have come across several very interesting websites that account for quite a few facts that prove the validity of the Bible based on either science, historical records and accounts, and archeology.

For starters, a very interesting read that would argue that the earth could in fact be millions of years old and not disprove the credibility of the Bible. It's actually a very interesting read:

AVOIDING A DANGEROUS TRAP | Reasons To Believe

Next, Biblical accounts of scientific "facts" long before they were ever discovered or even acknowledged by secular and mainstream science (in some cases 3,000 years prior):

Scientific facts that prove the Bible Text

Next, third party (Non-Bible) historical documentation of the Birth, Crucifixion, and Resurrection of Jesus. Interesting enough, several of these sources are people who hated Christians at the time of their writings. They wouldn't have had much incentive to make up Jesus and then talk about him in their writings.

Birth: Proof of Birth

Crucifixion: Crucifixion of Jesus

Resurrection: Resurrection of Jesus Christ-Historical Evidence

Additionally, it should be noted that Jesus has the longest biography of anybody in the Encyclopedia according to the above site. They also note the following:

Jesus is recorded as a fact, as is His death, burial and missing body in the Reader's Digest Book of Facts, 1989.
Here are some archeological discoveries that validate several people and events written about in the Bible:

Archaeological

Archaeological Discoveries that confirm Biblical Accounts:
From the radio show "The Book and The Spade" by Gordon Govier and Keith Sohoville.
An inscription at a Roman theater in Caesarea Martima reading, "Pontius Pilate, prefect of Judea".

An inscription found in Northern Israel mentioning King David's dynasty. The inscription is the oldest reference to any Biblical figure outside the Bible.

The discovery of an ossuary, a stone box used for retaining bones of the deceased, inscribed with the name of Caiaphas, the high priest who presided over the trial of Jesus shortly before his crucifixion.

From the Jerusalem Christian Review
JERUSALEM - Israeli archeologists have uncovered a 1st century cave, in a suburb south of Jerusalem, which served as a tomb to a family of disciples of Jesus Christ.

The burial cave, carved in the mountainside, off the Kidron Valley, contained several coffins, with names engraved on their sides, as well as signs of the cross. These inscriptions identified the cave as the burial vault of the Barsabas family. This family is well known to us, since several of its members are mentioned in the book of Acts. The tomb remained hidden for nearly 2000 years.

Eminent Jerusalem Historian, Prof. Ory N. Mazar, states that "at least some members of this family were among the very first disciples of Christ."
Finally, the validity of the Bible vs. other historical documents:

Validity of the Bible

Pay special attention to the chart on that page. I'll see if I can duplicate it in this post:

Some would argue that the Bible can't be trusted because we do not know if the copies we have of the Bible are accurate, or if the original manuscripts are accurate.

To determine the accuracy of the manuscripts, we can compare the Bible manuscripts to manuscripts of other literature. If we are going to be fair, we should not require more of the Bible than we do other literature, but the Bible will hold up to even more scrutiny.

The chart below lists some documents, how many known original manuscripts, and the time span from the first known manuscript and when the document was authored.

Author-------------------No. of Copies------------Time Span
Caesar------------------------------10------------1.000 years
Plato (Tetralogies)------------------7------------1,200 years
Tacitus (Annals)--------------------20------------1,000 years
Pliny the Younger (History)----------7------------750 years
Suetonius (De Vita Caesarum)---------8------------800 years
Homer (Iliad)----------------------643------------500 years
New Testament--------------Over 24,000------------25 years


After looking at the chart above, which document do you believe is the most trustworthy in being accurate regarding being closest to the original? Homer's Iliad does not even come close to the New Testament. Time span is critical when determining if the manuscript is close to the original. The longer the time span, the more of a chance of error. The first New Testament manuscript has only a 25 year span compared to 500 years for Iliad. Yet many of our readers would read Iliad as the gospel before the Bible.

We should also mention that of the 24,000 New Testament manuscripts they are 15 different languages and they all are accurate in their translation.

Let's look at one more point regarding the accuracy of manuscripts. It is the concept of textual variations and textual corruption. We will compare Iliad with the New Testament. The Iliad has about 15,600 textual line variations compared to the New Testament which has about 20,000 textual line variations. Not bad considering there are over 23,000 more manuscripts of the New Testament than the Iliad.

The Iliad has 764 lines of textual corruption whereas the New Testament only has 40 lines of textual corruption. So, which is the more accurate document?

*This data is from "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" by Josh McDowell 1979. There is a newer edition of this book which probably has even more powerful proof of the validity of scripture. As time allows we will update this page, better yet, why not get the book and read it yourself.
There is plenty more evidence where a lot of this came from too. That last part references a book titled "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" by Josh McDowell. There is an updated version with even more evidence titled "New Evidence that Demands a Verdict". It's 800 pages long.

Another book that Josh McDowell endorsed is called "I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist" by Norman L. Geisler and Frank Turek. This one is 448 pages long.

Both of the above books are detailed and complex reads. They are also quite lengthy. I have found that in general, most people aren't willing to read 400+ pages about something they are not even sure if they are open to, let alone 800. However, I recently read another book that is a lot shorter than the above two. Granted it doesn't have as much information, but it still provides enough to really get you seriously thinking. It's a very smooth read. I read it in two sittings without getting bored. It's titled "One Heartbeat Away" and it's by Mark Cahill. For those interested in reading this book, I've offered a challenge in another thread where I have even offered to buy the book for you. For more details on that, visit this thread.

So here's how I'd like this thread to work. First of all, this is a fact thread, not an opinion thread. While you can have opinions based on facts, make sure that you post facts as well. This thread will definitely lead to several intense debates. Please do your best to cite your sources that back your arguments. Obviously I've shown what I feel to be evidence that proves Christianity. If you feel you have evidence to the contrary, feel free to post it. Also, I would also appreciate it if you would address the evidence I've posted. I believe some of it is exceptionally strong and I'm curious to see how it will hold up against some of the more serious atheists and agnostics here. I will do the same with any evidence that you post to support your side.

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Reply Posted: April 16th, 2010 @ 03:57 AM
Please let me apologize that I did not read all your sources, which I think are interesting, for the simple reason that I know by reading them, there is not much to gain: Since none of us, neither you nor I nor anybody else here, is expert enough to prove all the claims made there, we will be at the same point where we started, even after reading them -- either you believe what you want to believe (trusting the source), or you don't. Basically, it just boils down to the fallacy of "appeal to authority", we still stand where we stood in the beginning, just can cite names to back it up.

And there can be no doubt, not even the slightest, that anybody who claims he can "prove the Bible true" is a crook. Nobody can do that. Maybe you can prove true one claim or another in the Bible, but not the Christian faith in general. You can also prove that certain stories in the Bible are based on actual historical events, but we will never know how much of it is true, how much was added, or if certain aspects of the true history have been falsified.

On the other side, you also find many claims in the Bible which are proven to be false. Just to name one: I remember one guy, I believe in Exodus, wanted to breed moddled cattle out of plain cattle. To do so, he held moddled bark in front of them when they copulated -- et voilà, the offsprings were moddled. It goes without saying that this is scientifically-wise absolute bullsh*t.

But I want to reply in general: I have no doubt that the Bible contains many stories that are based on historical facts -- in some cases rather accurately, others events are varnished, maybe details added, sometimes interpreted in a certain manner, some may be entirely fictional. Also, I have no doubt that many things today known as scientific facts are in the Bible too -- man has been smart for a very long time already, even before accurate scientific methods were established. After all, it were men who built the Pyramids long before modern architecture, and some native American peoples had very deep insight into astronomy that was by far greater than that of Europeans in the Dark Ages. So I am sure that certain scientific truths had been known back then, which have later been forgotten again, and have only been rediscovered again in modern times.

But none of that "proves the Bible true". Just because some events or truths are contained in the Bible, that doesn't mean everything in the Bible is true. For example, you cannot scientifically prove the existence of God. That's why it's called "belief".

It's very dangerous to conflate belief or faith with science, in my opinion. The authors of the Bible did not abide to scientific method. Scientists, as we understand the term today, did not even exist back then. The Bible is a wild, unordered mix of ancient folklore tales, national history chronicles of the Jewish people, myths, scientific wisdom, valuable advice, ethics and ancient laws.

At the time when it was written, man did not know yet how to differentiate between these different topics -- and neither did they work accurately and scientifically valid. They conflated law with ethical philosophy, hearsay and tradition with natural science, historiography with myths.

That, of course, doesn't mean at all everything in the Bible is wrong -- on the contrary, much of the wisdom may actually be true, valid and helpful. Just we can never be sure what is, and what is not.

The Bible is not a science book, and must never be treated as such. By doing so, you do injustice to both science and faith. I remember my religious education teacher back in high school, who also was a physics teacher, who said that "science explains how things are, the Bible explains why they are". When we encountered an apparent contradiction between science and the Bible in class, he would advise us not to read the Bible literally, but to "see the lesson behind it", or "to get the message", because in his opinion, that's what makes the Bible valuable.


Reply Posted: April 16th, 2010 @ 08:10 AM
Originally Posted by Hybrix View Post
I was asked in another thread to post facts from a book claiming to prove the Bible's validity. While I still think the person who asked me should just read the book, I decided to make this thread and open a discussion on such facts. A lot of people are quick to assume that there is no evidence that the Bible is true. In this thread I will attempt to show those assumptions to be dead wrong. Additionally, I've included links to several books at the bottom of this thread that go into a lot more detail about the evidence of the Bible/Christianity being true.

I've been doing some research lately and have come across several very interesting websites that account for quite a few facts that prove the validity of the Bible based on either science, historical records and accounts, and archeology.

For starters, a very interesting read that would argue that the earth could in fact be millions of years old and not disprove the credibility of the Bible. It's actually a very interesting read:

AVOIDING A DANGEROUS TRAP | Reasons To Believe

Next, Biblical accounts of scientific "facts" long before they were ever discovered or even acknowledged by secular and mainstream science (in some cases 3,000 years prior):

Scientific facts that prove the Bible Text

Next, third party (Non-Bible) historical documentation of the Birth, Crucifixion, and Resurrection of Jesus. Interesting enough, several of these sources are people who hated Christians at the time of their writings. They wouldn't have had much incentive to make up Jesus and then talk about him in their writings.

Birth: Proof of Birth

Crucifixion: Crucifixion of Jesus

Resurrection: Resurrection of Jesus Christ-Historical Evidence

Additionally, it should be noted that Jesus has the longest biography of anybody in the Encyclopedia according to the above site. They also note the following:



Here are some archeological discoveries that validate several people and events written about in the Bible:

Archaeological



Finally, the validity of the Bible vs. other historical documents:

Validity of the Bible

Pay special attention to the chart on that page. I'll see if I can duplicate it in this post:



There is plenty more evidence where a lot of this came from too. That last part references a book titled "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" by Josh McDowell. There is an updated version with even more evidence titled "New Evidence that Demands a Verdict". It's 800 pages long.

Another book that Josh McDowell endorsed is called "I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist" by Norman L. Geisler and Frank Turek. This one is 448 pages long.

Both of the above books are detailed and complex reads. They are also quite lengthy. I have found that in general, most people aren't willing to read 400+ pages about something they are not even sure if they are open to, let alone 800. However, I recently read another book that is a lot shorter than the above two. Granted it doesn't have as much information, but it still provides enough to really get you seriously thinking. It's a very smooth read. I read it in two sittings without getting bored. It's titled "One Heartbeat Away" and it's by Mark Cahill. For those interested in reading this book, I've offered a challenge in another thread where I have even offered to buy the book for you. For more details on that, visit this thread.

So here's how I'd like this thread to work. First of all, this is a fact thread, not an opinion thread. While you can have opinions based on facts, make sure that you post facts as well. This thread will definitely lead to several intense debates. Please do your best to cite your sources that back your arguments. Obviously I've shown what I feel to be evidence that proves Christianity. If you feel you have evidence to the contrary, feel free to post it. Also, I would also appreciate it if you would address the evidence I've posted. I believe some of it is exceptionally strong and I'm curious to see how it will hold up against some of the more serious atheists and agnostics here. I will do the same with any evidence that you post to support your side.
I was actually looking for scientific proof of god and not the bible, I don't doubt- no i can't comment because i can't remember anything I've read from the bible lol.

Anyway, since it's nearly 2 am here i'll only reply to a couple of the facts at the beginning!

I'd just like to make a comment that as usual, people seem to gleam whatever suits them from statements in religious text!

-----------
What Holds the Earth Up?
"Three thousand years ago the Hindu scriptures recorded the earth was resting on the backs of several huge elephants. The elephants were resting on the back of a very large turtle that was swimming in a sea. Greek mythology claims that the god Atlas was holding the earth on his shoulders. But our Bible says in Job 26:7 — "[God] hangeth the earth on nothing." What a remarkable statement of fact. The earth is suspended in space. Nothing is holding it up. Job wrote about the same time the Hindu Scripture was written. How did Job know this scientific fact? Only God could have revealed this to Job. The Old Testament prophets wrote as they were moved by the holy Spirit (2 Peter 1:21). The Judeo-Christian Bible is the inspired Word of God."


Alright, what holds the earth up is callled gravity and it's not nothing!



-----------------


"For thousands of years people believed the earth was flat. If one went too far, he would fall over the edge. This was taught in both Hindu and Buddhist scripture. In the 1500s, the first ship sailed around the world. This proved the earth was round. But the round earth was recorded in the Judeo-Christian Bible long before man discovered it in the 1500s.
The prophet Isaiah (40:22) spoke of the "circle of the earth." Solomon wrote, "He [God] set a compass [circle] upon the face of the deep." Proverbs 8:27. In our century, Arabs spoke of infidels being pushed over the edge into space. About 3,000 years ago, our Bible said the earth was round. This was not discovered until 500 years ago. Indeed, the Judeo-Christian Bible is the inspired Word of God."


As i said about the interpretation of religious text at the start, circle = circle, and not sphere.


---------
Sun, Moon and Stars — Who? What?

Ancient people were afraid of the sun, moon and stars. They thought they were alive — that they were gods. But over 5,000 years ago, the Judeo-Christian Bible in the first chapter of Genesis pointed out that the sun, moon and stars were created by God. Remember, our God states that He is the one and only God. This proves the sun, moon and stars that He created are not gods.
Eclipses are an example of what people feared. An eclipse happens when the sun’s light is blocked by the earth or moon. The moon is bright because it reflects the sun’s light. But when the earth blocks that light, the moon looks like it is disappearing. Also, when the moon comes between the earth and the sun, it looks like the sun is disappearing.
This was frightening to people long ago. Some thought eclipses happened when the moon was mad at the earth and turned its face away. The Chinese believed that an eclipse was caused by a demon or some huge animal that ate the sun and then would give them up again. God told Jeremiah (10:2 KJ): "Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them." God went on to reassure Jeremiah that the universe is under God’s control.
Later scientists learned that heavenly bodies were not alive and that man need not fear them. Thousands of years before scientists discovered that the planetary bodies were inanimate, the Judeo-Christian Bible contained this scientific fact.


So it doesn't say that suns and stars aren't gods...It simply they are signs of heaven (?????????How is that any less insane????????)


----------------

The Bottom of the Ocean
Until modern times people thought the ocean floor was sandy like the desert and saucer shaped—deepest in the middle. This was even true of the pre-1900 geologists. But in the 1900s oceanographers found the sea had many deep valleys or canyons. The deepest canyons were called trenches. The Marianas Trench in the Pacific is so deep that if Mt. Everest (29,000 feet high) was dropped into it, the peak would still be a mile below the water’s surface. There are also underwater mountains. The Atlantic Ocean contains an undersea range of mountains 10,000 miles long.
In addition, 3,000 years ago the Judeo-Christian Bible spoke of the valleys and mountains of the sea. In Psalm 18:15 (NIV) David wrote of God being the creator of "the valleys of the sea." God asked Job (38:16 NIV): "Have you walked in the recesses [interpretation->valleys] of the sea?" The prophet Jonah was thrown off a ship and spoke of falling to the bottom of the mountains in the sea (Jonah 2:6). (yeah I'm sure people can survive that deep)

The Judeo-Christian Bible spoke of the valleys and mountains of the sea thousands of years before scientists discovered them. Indeed our Bible is the inspired Word of God.



And even if it is meant to be interpreted as you believe you can't know that people who wrote this didn't just think differently (no, not because god told them -.-) to what other people were believed to think at this time. It all seems very conveniently interpreted.




----------------

The Paths of the Sea
In the 1800s, Matthew Maury, an officer in the United States Navy believed his Bible. As a Christian he loved to read the Bible. One day Maury was reading about the dominion man was given over the animals in Psalm 8. He was amazed that verse 8 spoke of the fish and all creatures that swim in the "paths of the sea." "Paths of the sea"— how could this be? He never knew there was such a thing. He was determined to find them. Maury discovered that the oceans have many paths or currents, which were like rivers flowing through the sea. Maury wrote the first book on oceanography and became known as "the pathfinder of the seas"— "The father of modern navigation."
Maury received his idea about ocean currents from reading Psalm 8:8 which was written about 3,000 years ago by King David. David wrote as he was moved by the Spirit of God and probably never actually saw an ocean.
Incidentally, Psalm 8:8 also spoke of fish in the "paths of the seas." All fishing boats make a good catch in the currents or paths of the sea. They have learned this is where the fish swim.




Again, since they are so vague it's easy to interpret them in nearly any way. But kudos to the bible for inspiring this guys work!



-------------------------


I'll keep going tommorow but for now I need to sleep.


Just a question, does this mean you believe everything written in the bible to be fact? Or just the parts that happened to be right if you interpret them in a certain way?


Reply Posted: April 16th, 2010 @ 08:26 AM
Originally Posted by Spooky View Post
I was actually looking for scientific proof of god and not the bible, I don't doubt- no i can't comment because i can't remember anything I've read from the bible lol.

Anyway, since it's nearly 2 am here i'll only reply to a couple of the facts at the beginning!

I'd just like to make a comment that as usual, people seem to gleam whatever suits them from statements in religious text!

-----------
What Holds the Earth Up?
"Three thousand years ago the Hindu scriptures recorded the earth was resting on the backs of several huge elephants. The elephants were resting on the back of a very large turtle that was swimming in a sea. Greek mythology claims that the god Atlas was holding the earth on his shoulders. But our Bible says in Job 26:7 — "[God] hangeth the earth on nothing." What a remarkable statement of fact. The earth is suspended in space. Nothing is holding it up. Job wrote about the same time the Hindu Scripture was written. How did Job know this scientific fact? Only God could have revealed this to Job. The Old Testament prophets wrote as they were moved by the holy Spirit (2 Peter 1:21). The Judeo-Christian Bible is the inspired Word of God."


Alright, what holds the earth up is callled gravity and it's not nothing!



-----------------


"For thousands of years people believed the earth was flat. If one went too far, he would fall over the edge. This was taught in both Hindu and Buddhist scripture. In the 1500s, the first ship sailed around the world. This proved the earth was round. But the round earth was recorded in the Judeo-Christian Bible long before man discovered it in the 1500s.
The prophet Isaiah (40:22) spoke of the "circle of the earth." Solomon wrote, "He [God] set a compass [circle] upon the face of the deep." Proverbs 8:27. In our century, Arabs spoke of infidels being pushed over the edge into space. About 3,000 years ago, our Bible said the earth was round. This was not discovered until 500 years ago. Indeed, the Judeo-Christian Bible is the inspired Word of God."


As i said about the interpretation of religious text at the start, circle = circle, and not sphere.


---------
Sun, Moon and Stars — Who? What?

Ancient people were afraid of the sun, moon and stars. They thought they were alive — that they were gods. But over 5,000 years ago, the Judeo-Christian Bible in the first chapter of Genesis pointed out that the sun, moon and stars were created by God. Remember, our God states that He is the one and only God. This proves the sun, moon and stars that He created are not gods.
Eclipses are an example of what people feared. An eclipse happens when the sun’s light is blocked by the earth or moon. The moon is bright because it reflects the sun’s light. But when the earth blocks that light, the moon looks like it is disappearing. Also, when the moon comes between the earth and the sun, it looks like the sun is disappearing.
This was frightening to people long ago. Some thought eclipses happened when the moon was mad at the earth and turned its face away. The Chinese believed that an eclipse was caused by a demon or some huge animal that ate the sun and then would give them up again. God told Jeremiah (10:2 KJ): "Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them." God went on to reassure Jeremiah that the universe is under God’s control.
Later scientists learned that heavenly bodies were not alive and that man need not fear them. Thousands of years before scientists discovered that the planetary bodies were inanimate, the Judeo-Christian Bible contained this scientific fact.


So it doesn't say that suns and stars aren't gods...It simply they are signs of heaven (?????????How is that any less insane????????)


----------------

The Bottom of the Ocean
Until modern times people thought the ocean floor was sandy like the desert and saucer shaped—deepest in the middle. This was even true of the pre-1900 geologists. But in the 1900s oceanographers found the sea had many deep valleys or canyons. The deepest canyons were called trenches. The Marianas Trench in the Pacific is so deep that if Mt. Everest (29,000 feet high) was dropped into it, the peak would still be a mile below the water’s surface. There are also underwater mountains. The Atlantic Ocean contains an undersea range of mountains 10,000 miles long.
In addition, 3,000 years ago the Judeo-Christian Bible spoke of the valleys and mountains of the sea. In Psalm 18:15 (NIV) David wrote of God being the creator of "the valleys of the sea." God asked Job (38:16 NIV): "Have you walked in the recesses [interpretation->valleys] of the sea?" The prophet Jonah was thrown off a ship and spoke of falling to the bottom of the mountains in the sea (Jonah 2:6). (yeah I'm sure people can survive that deep)

The Judeo-Christian Bible spoke of the valleys and mountains of the sea thousands of years before scientists discovered them. Indeed our Bible is the inspired Word of God.



And even if it is meant to be interpreted as you believe you can't know that people who wrote this didn't just think differently (no, not because god told them -.-) to what other people were believed to think at this time. It all seems very conveniently interpreted.




----------------

The Paths of the Sea
In the 1800s, Matthew Maury, an officer in the United States Navy believed his Bible. As a Christian he loved to read the Bible. One day Maury was reading about the dominion man was given over the animals in Psalm 8. He was amazed that verse 8 spoke of the fish and all creatures that swim in the "paths of the sea." "Paths of the sea"— how could this be? He never knew there was such a thing. He was determined to find them. Maury discovered that the oceans have many paths or currents, which were like rivers flowing through the sea. Maury wrote the first book on oceanography and became known as "the pathfinder of the seas"— "The father of modern navigation."
Maury received his idea about ocean currents from reading Psalm 8:8 which was written about 3,000 years ago by King David. David wrote as he was moved by the Spirit of God and probably never actually saw an ocean.
Incidentally, Psalm 8:8 also spoke of fish in the "paths of the seas." All fishing boats make a good catch in the currents or paths of the sea. They have learned this is where the fish swim.




Again, since they are so vague it's easy to interpret them in nearly any way. But kudos to the bible for inspiring this guys work!



-------------------------


I'll keep going tommorow but for now I need to sleep.


Just a question, does this mean you believe everything written in the bible to be fact? Or just the parts that happened to be right if you interpret them in a certain way?
Spooky,

I saw some thread where you stated you could not know which religious writings were true and which weren't. While these examples don't prove the validity of the Bible, what they do is dis-prove the validity of other text. So if you are really interested in finding the true word of God and not being an antagonistic, you can start by removing the text that have been proven false.

And yes, I believe everything written in the Bible.


Reply Posted: April 16th, 2010 @ 04:04 PM
Originally Posted by Sim View Post
On the other side, you also find many claims in the Bible which are proven to be false. Just to name one: I remember one guy, I believe in Exodus, wanted to breed moddled cattle out of plain cattle. To do so, he held moddled bark in front of them when they copulated -- et voilà, the offsprings were moddled. It goes without saying that this is scientifically-wise absolute bullsh*t.
I don't remember that. Are you referring to Pharaoh's dream?

"When two full years had passed, Pharaoh had a dream: He was standing by the Nile, 2when out of the river there came up seven cows, sleek and fat, and they grazed among the reeds. 3After them, seven other cows, ugly and gaunt, came up out of the Nile and stood beside those on the riverbank. 4And the cows that were ugly and gaunt ate up the seven sleek, fat cows. Then Pharaoh woke up." - Genesis 41:1-4

Originally Posted by Sim View Post
But none of that "proves the Bible true". Just because some events or truths are contained in the Bible, that doesn't mean everything in the Bible is true. For example, you cannot scientifically prove the existence of God. That's why it's called "belief".
Well, as I said in the OP the sources I provided do not focus primarily on one specific type of evidence. I didn't even get into the prophecies that came to pass that were written in the Bible thousands of years earlier.

But take for example the evidence on the second site I posted. It provides text written by third parties that verified the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. Historians can agree conclusively that Jesus Christ was an actual person that really lived. They can also conclude from third party historical records that he was in fact crucified. Additionally, within 25 years of his resurrection, the gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John) were circulated along with the rest of the New Testament. According to the chart I posted, more than 24,000 copies of New Testament writings were circulated within 25 years time. As you can see, no other historical documents prior to this time period even come close, and yet we all have no problem accepting those. So, with 24,000+ copies of various parts of the New Testament in circulation, many written by people who saw Jesus themselves, witnessed the crucifixion and resurrection, etc, we have to ask ourselves a few questions:

1. Did Jesus really exist? - There is overwhelming evidence to support that he did exist. There is no more reason to believe that he didn't exist than there is to say that Julius Caesar didn't exist.

2. Was he really crucified? - Again, there are countless third party sources that talk about his crucifixion. Ranging from Roman documents to Jewish documents to early church documents. The Romans wouldn't have written about his crucifixion as fact if they knew it was fake. They wouldn't have wanted to encourage such lies for obvious reasons.

3. Most importantly, if he really did live and was crucified, was he resurrected? - This is what Christianity hinges on. If this event can be proven false, then all of Christianity is false. Read the page I linked to regarding this. It's quite interesting. Plus, take into account the following:

-a. Eye witnesses to his crucifixion and resurrection dedicated their lives to spreading Christianity. In many cases, they died horrible deaths and still didn't deny Christ. There deaths are documented in history as well. Why would anybody dedicate their life and in the end be martyred for something they knew was a lie?

-b. Additionally, their writings were copied over 24,000 times in just 25 years from the time the events they described took place. Where are the writings from that same time period saying that these writings are falsified?

-c. Jesus' body was never found. Ever. This is a historical fact. Considering he was easily the most famous person to have ever lived, it would have been extremely hard to steal his body and hide it. The Romans themselves set up guards so that nobody could steal the body. In fact, there are no Roman writings that suggest that the body was stolen.

Originally Posted by Spooky View Post
Just a question, does this mean you believe everything written in the bible to be fact? Or just the parts that happened to be right if you interpret them in a certain way?
You missed the point of that page you read. Obviously we know NOW that those observations mentioned in the Bible are true. The point is that these observations weren't even labeled or discovered by scientists until the past thousand years or less. They were observed in the Bible over 3,000 years ago.

As for the parts that "happened" to be right, that's why that page also references other religious texts from other religions. You will notice that those didn't "happen" to be right. They were wrong. There is quite a bit that "happened" to be right in the Bible. In fact, there isn't one thing that "happened" to be wrong.


Reply Posted: April 16th, 2010 @ 04:17 PM
Originally Posted by Hybrix View Post
I don't remember that. Are you referring to Pharaoh's dream?

"When two full years had passed, Pharaoh had a dream: He was standing by the Nile, 2when out of the river there came up seven cows, sleek and fat, and they grazed among the reeds. 3After them, seven other cows, ugly and gaunt, came up out of the Nile and stood beside those on the riverbank. 4And the cows that were ugly and gaunt ate up the seven sleek, fat cows. Then Pharaoh woke up." - Genesis 41:1-4
I think he was talking about Genesis 30-31 when Jacob flees from Laban.


Reply Posted: April 16th, 2010 @ 04:30 PM
Originally Posted by Echoes View Post
I think he was talking about Genesis 30-31 when Jacob flees from Laban.
Ok, I was way off. That's definitely what he was referring to.

I did some research on this just now and found an interesting article on the subject. It should be noted that Jacob was a trickster. He basically figured out a way to get what he wanted while looking like he was being honest.

http://faculty.washington.edu/snoege...NES%201997.pdf

Otherwise, it could also be argued that it was a miracle. I mean, science can't explain a man walking on water or raising from the dead after being stabbed through the heart either. Just because science can't explain miracles doesn't mean they didn't occur by supernatural means. I mean, that's why we have the word "supernatural" in the first place.


Reply Posted: April 16th, 2010 @ 05:32 PM
Originally Posted by Hybrix View Post
I don't remember that. Are you referring to Pharaoh's dream?

"When two full years had passed, Pharaoh had a dream: He was standing by the Nile, 2when out of the river there came up seven cows, sleek and fat, and they grazed among the reeds. 3After them, seven other cows, ugly and gaunt, came up out of the Nile and stood beside those on the riverbank. 4And the cows that were ugly and gaunt ate up the seven sleek, fat cows. Then Pharaoh woke up." - Genesis 41:1-4
No, the Pharaoh's dream is not the story I mean. I was wrong, it's in Genesis, not in Exodus. Took me a while to find it, but I've looked it up: Genesis 30:37-43.

The guy in question is Laban. This excerpt suggests that plain white sheep will breed mottled or black offsprings when they look at mottled bark when copulating.

Obviously, this is not scientifically accurate and rather falls into the category of "magical thinking". Of course plain white sheep can breed black or mottled offsprings, but certainly not because of visual stimulation during the copulation.

(I'm sorry for not posting the exact quote. I have a Bible in German language only at hand. But I am sure you can look it up easily.)

I guess the teacher I mentioned would say the essential part of the story is not this detail, and it doesn't need to be true to get the point across -- that Laban got wealthy on cost of his brother, by being smart and playing a trick on him.

Well, as I said in the OP the sources I provided do not focus primarily on one specific type of evidence. I didn't even get into the prophecies that came to pass that were written in the Bible thousands of years earlier.
Because of the war dreams I mentioned in another thread, I have studied the topic of prophecies quite a lot -- mostly non-Biblical alleged prophecies, though. And I agree that it's frightening how much of it seems to perfectly describe events that had not taken place when the prophecy was made, yet has become history in the meantime.

But the problem is, most prophecies are so vague that when you search long enough, you will find an historical event that fits. And you always need to fill the gaps by interpretation.

But a good prophecy is only good and can be considered genuine premonition, when it accurately predicts an event before it takes place. To assign real events to it in retrospect doesn't say much. And so far, all alleged prophecies I have seen fail to deliver that.

But take for example the evidence on the second site I posted. It provides text written by third parties that verified the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. Historians can agree conclusively that Jesus Christ was an actual person that really lived. They can also conclude from third party historical records that he was in fact crucified. Additionally, within 25 years of his resurrection, the gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John) were circulated along with the rest of the New Testament. According to the chart I posted, more than 24,000 copies of New Testament writings were circulated within 25 years time. As you can see, no other historical documents prior to this time period even come close, and yet we all have no problem accepting those. So, with 24,000+ copies of various parts of the New Testament in circulation, many written by people who saw Jesus themselves, witnessed the crucifixion and resurrection, etc, we have to ask ourselves a few questions:

1. Did Jesus really exist? - There is overwhelming evidence to support that he did exist. There is no more reason to believe that he didn't exist than there is to say that Julius Caesar didn't exist.

2. Was he really crucified? - Again, there are countless third party sources that talk about his crucifixion. Ranging from Roman documents to Jewish documents to early church documents. The Romans wouldn't have written about his crucifixion as fact if they knew it was fake. They wouldn't have wanted to encourage such lies for obvious reasons.
Yes, I have heard that too. As far as I know, according to contemporary historical and archeological science, the existence of Jesus is considered historical fact. Scientists have found evidence Jesus is a historical person, and that his crucification took place.

That doesn't mean the details described in the New Testament are necessarily accurate -- details may have been added, others exaggerated, some even entirely fictional.

You probably know better than I how long after Jesus' crucification the gospels were written, but if I remember correctly, the first was written 25 to 30 years later, the latest even around 80 to 100 years later.

We're talking about an age here when the conversation of documents was rudimentary at best -- there were no audio tapes to record Jesus' preachings, no cameras and only the fewest people could even read and write. So the content of the events described in the gospels was necessarily based on oral tradition and hearsay. Even if I believed in God, I would still have reason to question the validity of these reports, because it was not God who passed down the gospels to man, but it were fallible humans who wrote them, and it were fallible humans who had passed it from one to another orally, before it was finally written down.

You know how rumor can spread, change and expand with time -- every person who passes it to the next may change or add a detail, view it through the glasses of a particular interpretation, or exaggerate it. Well possible Jesus did no wonders at all, but just was a remarkable, outstanding human being, who was considered a savior by many. Then he even became a martyr -- so it wouldn't take me wonder in the slightest if those who adored him, but had never seen him in person, exaggerated his deeds and capacities very much.

3. Most importantly, if he really did live and was crucified, was he resurrected? - This is what Christianity hinges on. If this event can be proven false, then all of Christianity is false. Read the page I linked to regarding this. It's quite interesting. Plus, take into account the following:

-a. Eye witnesses to his crucifixion and resurrection dedicated their lives to spreading Christianity. In many cases, they died horrible deaths and still didn't deny Christ. There deaths are documented in history as well. Why would anybody dedicate their life and in the end be martyred for something they knew was a lie?
Simple answer: They didn't know it was a lie. Maybe it wasn't even a lie in the first place, but just a misunderstanding due to a lack of crucial information.

Imagine, for example, after Jesus was crucified, the rumor spread that he was dead. But he wasn't dead yet, and was taken down from the cross. Then some who had heard the initial rumor happened to see him again alife -- et voilà, the myth was born Jesus has been resurrected. We can't blame these people for lying -- when you don't have other sources than just rumor, and also strongly admire the person who believed to be dead, the idea is not far-fetched to assume he is in God's grace and has been resurrected, in that situation.

As I said above, most of these people most likely never met Jesus in person, but only knew about him from exaggerated hearsay. In a time when it's impossible for the individual to get the information necessary to prove or disprove hearsay, such oral tradition is the only source of information they had. And when then, in addition to this exaggerated hearsay, Jesus preachings hit a nerve in many people of that time (which wouldn't surprise me at all, because I believe the Sermon on the Mount still has a lot to offer even today), I can very well imagine they would risk their lives for this new religion.

-b. Additionally, their writings were copied over 24,000 times in just 25 years from the time the events they described took place. Where are the writings from that same time period saying that these writings are falsified?
First, the burden of proof lies with the person who makes a claim in the first place, it doesn't lie with those who question the claim. When I claim "the Flying Spaghetti Monster created the world", it's up to me to prove it, not up to you to disprove it. When I cannot do that, you have no reason to assume my claim is true.

Also, as I explained above, I don't think the events were deliberately falsified.

And I don't think the Bible is a good historical source for the deeds of the historical person of Jesus: The writings you mention are those written and circulated by Jesus' followers -- which is an unreliable source, as explained above. As far as I know, there are no non-Christian sources which claim Jesus had been resurrected.

But you are right, there is no proof to the contrary either. And there is certain evidence for the fact that Jesus at least existed. So it may very well be true -- but for me, the clues suggesting that are too vague and unreliable to be considered proof. As long as it's neither proven, nor disproven, I go with "Occam's Razor": The explanation that needs the fewest variables is the best one. Miracles or the supernatural are way too big variables for my taste, so I go with the hearsay variant, until I see proof for it.

-c. Jesus' body was never found. Ever. This is a historical fact. Considering he was easily the most famous person to have ever lived, it would have been extremely hard to steal his body and hide it. The Romans themselves set up guards so that nobody could steal the body. In fact, there are no Roman writings that suggest that the body was stolen.
That Jesus' body was never found is no proof that he has vanished. As far as I know, there is not even any evidence or clue for the claim he didn't die at the cross -- so when even that is not sure, how can we be sure that his body finally vanished after his alleged resurrection?

Don't forget Jesus was not considered one of the most famous people in history yet at that time -- for the Romans who crucified him, he was just an annoying criminal among many, who happened to be admired by a then small religious sect. So it's unlikely the Romans considered him important enough to track his fate and death and record files on it.

I don't know how often and how many people were crucified at that time -- maybe a dozen per month? We don't have evidence for all the others who were crucified, but that doesn't mean there were not many crucifications. Just like the lack of evidence for his dead body is not proof that it didn't exist.

But again, as said above, it isn't disproven either, of course. But the burden of proof lies with the one making the claim, not with the one questioning it.


Reply Posted: April 16th, 2010 @ 06:28 PM
Originally Posted by Hybrix View Post

Well, as I said in the OP the sources I provided do not focus primarily on one specific type of evidence. I didn't even get into the prophecies that came to pass that were written in the Bible thousands of years earlier.

But take for example the evidence on the second site I posted. It provides text written by third parties that verified the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. Historians can agree conclusively that Jesus Christ was an actual person that really lived. They can also conclude from third party historical records that he was in fact crucified. Additionally, within 25 years of his resurrection, the gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John) were circulated along with the rest of the New Testament. According to the chart I posted, more than 24,000 copies of New Testament writings were circulated within 25 years time. As you can see, no other historical documents prior to this time period even come close, and yet we all have no problem accepting those. So, with 24,000+ copies of various parts of the New Testament in circulation, many written by people who saw Jesus themselves, witnessed the crucifixion and resurrection, etc, we have to ask ourselves a few questions:

1. Did Jesus really exist? - There is overwhelming evidence to support that he did exist. There is no more reason to believe that he didn't exist than there is to say that Julius Caesar didn't exist.

2. Was he really crucified? - Again, there are countless third party sources that talk about his crucifixion. Ranging from Roman documents to Jewish documents to early church documents. The Romans wouldn't have written about his crucifixion as fact if they knew it was fake. They wouldn't have wanted to encourage such lies for obvious reasons.

3. Most importantly, if he really did live and was crucified, was he resurrected? - This is what Christianity hinges on. If this event can be proven false, then all of Christianity is false. Read the page I linked to regarding this. It's quite interesting. Plus, take into account the following:

-a. Eye witnesses to his crucifixion and resurrection dedicated their lives to spreading Christianity. In many cases, they died horrible deaths and still didn't deny Christ. There deaths are documented in history as well. Why would anybody dedicate their life and in the end be martyred for something they knew was a lie?

-b. Additionally, their writings were copied over 24,000 times in just 25 years from the time the events they described took place. Where are the writings from that same time period saying that these writings are falsified?

-c. Jesus' body was never found. Ever. This is a historical fact. Considering he was easily the most famous person to have ever lived, it would have been extremely hard to steal his body and hide it. The Romans themselves set up guards so that nobody could steal the body. In fact, there are no Roman writings that suggest that the body was stolen.
I don't doubt jesus existed, I'm sure he was a very intelligent guy with some very good ideas.. What I doubt is the divinity and you know.. god.



Originally Posted by Hybrix View Post
You missed the point of that page you read. Obviously we know NOW that those observations mentioned in the Bible are true. The point is that these observations weren't even labeled or discovered by scientists until the past thousand years or less. They were observed in the Bible over 3,000 years ago.

Originally Posted by Hybrix View Post
As for the parts that "happened" to be right, that's why that page also references other religious texts from other religions. You will notice that those didn't "happen" to be right. They were wrong. There is quite a bit that "happened" to be right in the Bible. In fact, there isn't one thing that "happened" to be wrong.
Forgive me if I'm missing something.. But some parts of the bible are just total er, for lack of a more crude word.. False.

Here's one

"Mark 16:17-18 (Today's New International Version) And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."


?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????


Reply Posted: April 17th, 2010 @ 06:55 AM
I visited the second link, and noticed the author of that page was claiming Biblical verses calling the Earth a "circle" were meant to indicate it was a sphere (the Earth isn't really a sphere, but close enough...). Circles and spheres are not the same. In fact, the belief that the Earth was a flat disk (i.e. circle) was pretty common back in ye' olden times. The Hindus thought it was a disc sitting on the back of a turtle, as the article points out. Which reminds me of a story. A scientist or secular philosopher (accounts differ, and Bertrand Russell is often named) was giving a lecture, and an old lady stood up and told him quite confidently that he was wrong, and that the Earth was a disc being held up by a giant turtle. The lecturer asked the lady what was holding up the turtle, and she smiled and said, "you thought you had me, didn't you? Well, I'm no fool. It's turtles all the way down!"

Also, the Earth was known to be a sphere since ancient times. Not everyone knew it, but sailors and the like had noticed the horizon. The whole "the Bible says the Earth is a circle" thing was about as far as I got, as far as reading the links in the OP is concerned. Though, I also noticed in the OP mentions the Reader's Digest Book of Facts listed some things about Jesus as facts. Really? The Reader's Digest Book of Facts? The leading authority on condensing articles and books? I mean, I guess I can't argue with that. Once they say something's a fact, it's etched in stone.

Anyways, I'm sure I could go through and individually address absolutely everything posted, but you can see from this post how I reacted to what little I did read. Maybe I could get something of a Reader's Digest style summary of all the high-points of everything posted in the OP? The real zingers that'll leave me scratching my head in puzzlement and shock? The whole shotgun approach to making a point doesn't do it for me. I don't say, "well look at all of that! Some of it has to demonstrate the intended point, because there's just so much!" I mean, I could perhaps fill a truck with literature on the luminiferous aether, but that doesn't change the fact it was all rendered bull****.

Last edited by ExpectantlyIronic; April 17th, 2010 at 07:10 AM..




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