how do you know that? (anyway i can say the same but about universe that had a purpose)



Have we found the purpose yet? So maybe there really isn't one ?
Yea, that's right. Our eyes are to see the light. Same is 'the pencil is so that we draw'. But there isn't like that: 'light exists to be seen by our eyes' or 'we draw so that pencils exist' (maybe except soviet russia, nvm). I hope you know what I mean. In some cases purpose really isn't necessary (i can even say in most cases).


Again I call it evolution. anyway, god created us, you say. who created god then?

- This comment leads me to believe that you have not understood the analogy fully.

- Yes I understand, and this brings up a good point: which comes first, the light or the eyes? Obviously the light.

We have eyes (light sensors) because there is light, not the other way around.
Similarly, we have a knowledge/feeling that creation has a purpose because there is a purpose.

Understand? Q: Why do we have eyes? A: because there is light to see. Q: Why do we humans have a sense of ultimate purpose and destiny? A: because there is an ultimate purpose and destiny.


Edit: Think of it like this... Imagine that one day you found yourself in complete darkness with millions of other people, and all of you had forgotten that there was light in the universe. You quarrelled amongst yourselves, and many said, "There is no light in the universe, you guys are silly". However, the fact that you all have eyes proves the existence of light in the universe.

Further edit: Also in the above hypothetical scenario, the very fact that you are arguing about the existence of light proves that the light exists (or has existed, and was seen by men). Otherwise, they would not even know what light was, and could not argue about it.

- According to the Bible, God is eternal, and has existed in eternity past, even before He created space-time.

Hmm. consider, for example, a bacteria. Simple creature that has no eyes (well at least i haven't met one with eyes yet). Let's assume it has its mind and thinks. Does it know that there's light? For sure it doesn't though the light exists. the same is an example of blind human. He or she since his/her birthday doesn't see the light. How does he/she know then whether it exists or no? And does he/she wonder 'why the hell do i need eyes?' To prove the light existstance? Then what is proved by existence of vermiform appendix?

So the existence of tales proves that dragons were true?




God can be eternal but the universe can't be endless? it seems pretty unfair against the universe.



Anyway tommorow I'm leaving for holidays so I won't post here anymore (unless the thread is still hot ;p but don't think after a month it is possible ). So thank you all for nice discussion and see you soon

- Umm... again, based on these comments, I can't be sure that you fully understand. The purpose/function of eyes is not to prove the existence of light, it's to see the light. It is the existence of eyes that proves the existence of light. But the light came first; that part is crucial. The light was made, and then the eyes to see the light. Likewise, creation was created with a purpose, and then man with the inherent knowledge and sense of the existence of that purpose.

- Firstly, I don't know what a vermiform appendix is. However, its existence probably does not prove anything profound. The existence of eyes proving the existence of light doesn't seem very profound... rather quite obvious. Besides, that doesn't really matter, because the eyes/light thing was a physical analogy for something unseen.

- Completely different. Dragons are mythical beings based on undeniable reality (physical serpents and such). Our sense of destiny/purpose, on the other hand, is based on reality that many have chosen to deny... a reality that is not physical, but is still as much a reality as this physical universe, if not more real. And, just like the dragon is a fabrication of reality (serpents), some religions are fabrications of the unseen reality.

(This is very much related to my "infinity argument" in the philosophy forum. It's closed now, but feel free to read it.)

- Firstly, the universe is God's creation. If it is bounded, then it is completely fair that it is bounded, because God made it that way for a reason. Secondly, I never said the universe was not endless... it very well may be... I don't know, but it probably isn't for us to know in this age.

The argument is more to the fact that the universe can be endless - but just that we, humans, don't really have the brainpower to accept that fact. It's because of us not being able to accept this that we are also doubting other things like the existence of God.

Think about it - the mere fact that the universe (and the space after the universe) is endless proves that we are nothing compared to it - and we are also nothing compared to the supernatural being that created us. If space really did have an end (say, a wall), then that's fair enough. But there'd still have to be something beyond that wall, even if it's empty, black, matter. But there must be something beyond this empty, black, matter.. do you see where i'm going?

It's probably safe to say that those who accept that the universe can be endless would probably except the existence of God - merely because the universe can't be endless to them, so God must be behind it all.

To paraphrase Epicurus: "When I am, death is not. When death is, I am not. Why should I fear something that cannot exist when I do?" Perhaps when we die we reach something akin to nirvana and simply cease as an individual conscious, unique personality, particular set of memories, etc; or perhaps something else entirely happens. I have no idea, but whatever happens, I don't imagine it's awful.

First post - Yes to all (Southern Baptist Christian).

...

Oh, should I add some substance?

Err... Why? Well, let's see where to begin. I consider myself a chill type of guy that floats by life having a fun time. I don't consider myself one of those guys that needs to question every single aspect of life, every single molecule that is either seeing by the human eye or that is not. So, when I was approached by God at a younger age and started to understand what "He" was about and is, it didn't seem so far-fetched to me. The word (scripture) made sense, it wasn't overly complicated and a lot of what was said in the Bible was some pretty scary stuff. It was believable to me and it made me feel comfortable.

While I don't fully understand everything in the Bible - nor claim to - I do believe that the foundation I currently have from it is a strong and healthy standing for a good life. I do notice how my behavior has changed since before I was born again, and I see the world in a different light now. While that light isn't good - probably considering how unholy it appears to me now - I try my best to live life without getting trapped when people attack you with: "You're a Bible thumper!", "God does not exist... Show me proof. Why believe if there is no proof?" and, of course "lol - troll dolls and gnomes running around, too?" So many people attack you once they find out you believe in God. While I am a proud Christian, I try not to force my beliefs on others and get that holier than thou attitude.

Anything else?

While I don't have solid proof and it may seem "crazy" at what I'm about to lay down, I stick by it. Not as my main source of proof (considering I was a believer before all of this and God's word is good enough to follow by nonetheless).

Karma. Do you believe in it? I do, however I don't call it "Karma", I call it "God". (For the sake of this post I'll keep calling it Karma just to not get confused) Karma has hit me so many times that I'm spinning as we speak. Whether it be good karma or bad I have been struck by it. If I said something remotely nasty to somebody I always had that nasty thing said happen to me or something similar soon thereafter (hours, days later). I can't just call it a coincidence since I don't believe in coincidences. It also wasn't a one-shot deal, either, it happens all the time, and even to this day it still continues to happen. That's why - even though I still stick my foot in my mouth - I try to watch my mouth the best I can. It can be actions, too, though, with me it has been with words. At least, from most of my experiences it's been with words. I'm always getting struck by Karma and either punished or helped out all because of my previous actions that happened either hours or days before. Sometimes weeks!

Now, I'm sure a lot of you are thinking I'm crazy or odd for using that, though I do believe it's God at work. Getting a taste of my own medicine or reward for my actions.

(Not to have his drawn out, but...)

Another reason would be how simple God's laws are. Reading some of the ridiculous laws that America - specially California - has I just know it's a good thing to listen and to follow God. He doesn't over complicate things like the state and government does. He lays out simple instructions to follow and I try my best to follow.

EX:

• A city ordinance states that a $500 fine will be given to anyone who detonates a nuclear device within city limits.
• Alhambra: You cannot leave your car on the street overnight without the proper permit.
• Animals are banned from mating publicly within 1,500 feet of a tavern, school, or place of worship.
• A regulation in San Francisco makes it unlawful to use used underwear to wipe off cars in a car wash.
• Baldwin Park: Nobody is allowed to ride a bicycle in a swimming pool.

From all that I've read and been taught, I see that God doesn't give you these silly laws to live by. They are unnecessary, and that's why I put God before country, as well. People sometimes like to think "Why need God in this day and age?" Well, my reason is right here... We are too smart for our own good and it's easy just to go with God and follow his simple, easy commandments.

Remember, all my opinion.

How was your behaviour like before you were born? Nah i'm kidding.

It's not crazy at all. You being a firm believer in the matters beyond our life here is probably what makes you the 'chill out' kind of guy like you say.

Yeah, it's bound to happen. Why? Because they follow the statement, 'seeing is believing'. In other words, they're narrow minded. They don't think about how they got here, what they're doing here, or what lies after death. All they think is that life sprouted from the Big Bang, and here they are.

The thing is, troll dolls and gnomes may not exist, but i can assure you that things related to the supernatural to exist, but we just can't see them. Don't think i'm insane for saying that, but that's what people probably call ghosts, angels and demons.

So what do you think happens when you die?..

We figured it out? Is that why everything is sunshine and lollipops? Or is that why there is such greed and oppression and fear in the world?
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Dead is dead. That is why we grieve. When someone dies their brain quits making consciousness and self awareness.

I don't believe God can exist because I just don't believe that an all perfect, all knowing, all powerful, all forgiving being would create us in the first place. If he's all perfect then what exactly were we meant to be? It can't be out of boredom or he's testing something out because he already knows what's going to happen.

Just let me ask a question though:

Is God so powerful that he can create a rock large enough that even he cannot lift it?

I know it's a weird question because why would he need to, but if can create it to be so large that he can't lift it he's not all powerful, if he can't make a rock large enough that he can't lift it then he's not all powerful.

It's just little things like that have me wavering my oppinion more to there being no God.

However as Richard Dawkins said in an interview with Bill Maher, I am completely paraphrasing here: "I rank myself a 9/10 for being an Atheist, just as I cannot completley 100% say that there is no god, nobody can say that there is one without any doubt"